Leaders with Leverage: Adopting a Negotiator Mindset

What Do I Do if I Don’t Respect My Boss? with James Capps

July 30, 2024 • Susie Tomenchok • Episode 99

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Have you ever struggled with a difficult boss and wondered how to maintain your professional integrity? In this episode, James Capps joins me to share actionable strategies for shifting your perspective, viewing your boss as a colleague rather than a parental figure. We discuss how this mindset shift can alleviate workplace tension and enhance your productivity.

We explore the significance of separating personal feelings from professional responsibilities, and we delve into how ego and lack of respect can cloud your judgment. With practical strategies, we guide you on navigating leadership challenges effectively, helping you stay focused on your goals even within a challenging organizational structure.

In this episode, we talk about the following:
1. Reframing your perspective on working with a boss you don't respect.
2. The importance of learning from a challenging boss by observing their mistakes.
3. Navigating around an ineffective boss to advocate for yourself and maintain your career trajectory.

Connect with James:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/capps/

The Negotiator's Toolbox is now available!
Get $100 off when you use code TOOLBOX at www.negotiationlove.com

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Ready to continue your professional growth?
Here are a few resources for you:


Speaker 1:

Do you ever find yourself sitting in a meeting with your boss and go. My God, I have to work for this idiot. Well, this episode may be for you. We're going to talk about how you can succeed when you're not really working for somebody that knows what they're doing.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Leaders with Leverage podcast.

Speaker 2:

I'm your host and negotiation expert, susie Tomlinson.

Speaker 2:

It's time to be your own advocate and confidently navigate what you want out of your career, not simply the next role or additional compensation. I want to show you that negotiation happens every day in plain sight, so you need to be ready to opt in and say yes with confidence. This happens by adopting a negotiator's mindset, and I'll show you how, together with other business leaders, you'll learn the essential skills and shifts in mindset you need to know. You will be empowered to naturally advocate for yourself and grow your professional skills, and while you're practicing along the way, you'll increase your confidence and gain respect, all while you're growing into that future leader you're poised to be, and when you face a high stakes situation, you're ready, no matter how high those stakes are. So let's do it. Let's lead with leverage. Hey, welcome. I'm so glad that you made the choice to be here today because I have my good friend, james, and we're going to talk about a topic that he's waving at you, in case you know, just for the people that are listening via audio.

Speaker 1:

That was it.

Speaker 2:

That was it. It was a right-hand wave very much a. Queen of England, a Queen-ish, it was a very royal, family-esque wave. So the topic I want to talk about today is if you don't respect your boss.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And it's such a meaty one, I knew I had to bring you in on it. And it's funny because I have had a couple people come to me with this challenge and one of them said I used to report to my boss's boss and I get more from them, I have more respect for them and I don't really respect my boss. What do I? Do and then just another one was I don't get anything from my boss and I don't respect them, and it's hard to show up every day.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, this is a really interesting conversation and I think that you know my advice is going to be centered around understanding who you are and what you're doing there. Sense that you need to reevaluate your relationship with your company and with your boss, because I think that a lot of this stems from how you are raised, and it comes from high school and the way that we're brought up, and it comes from what we think we should be getting from the person who is in charge, aka your parents, and so it is a really interesting thing that when you realize that they are not mom and dad and you have to change your perspective on what that relationship is, so are you saying that you need to also think about?

Speaker 2:

what does respect mean in this context?

Speaker 1:

No, I think what a lot of people do early in your career is you look for a job that that person who you report to will tell you what to do every day. You kind of look for the element, the school directioning directions. You know you show up on Monday, this is your, your, your workload. Maybe you're an entry-level person, you've got an inbox and an outbox and you got to get stuff done. You have a function and your direction is largely micro oriented and you take that direction.

Speaker 1:

But as you get further in your career it is more of a relationship, a symbiotic relationship, and you suddenly realize that you know I may be working for this person, but someday they may work for me and we are both going to co-work this activity together.

Speaker 1:

And when you can change that perspective and you realize that you know your stuff and you're going to get that work done with guidance and maybe oversight, but not direction, suddenly the value that person brings to the table is so much more insignificant and your need to respect that person is completely not relevant. You know I don't respect the guy who mows his lawn or the guy up the street that mows his lawn. I don't care if he mows his lawn, he just mows his lawn. Do your thing with dude. Maybe not a great analogy, but it's just. These things happen whether I'm there or not, and it doesn't affect me. And so when you start to look at your boss as somebody that you are sharing space with and you can learn from right or wrong, the need for that person to be, the need for you to respect them, is really important in negotiation.

Speaker 2:

Is it relevant? If you don't, if you respect, it's not relevant to the deal on the table, and so you need to make sure you're separating that and not allowing that to be a part of it, because if you look at it from that lens of non-respect, you're going to inhibit your ability. Yep, you are To move forward to the best possible outcome that you have.

Speaker 1:

Look in the most, probably the most typical scenario. You know, if you're a mid-level person, you're not a C-level executive, you're not running your own company, you haven't been flown out to, you, know the headquarters and been wined and dined. You're a mid-level manager and you find yourself in a reorg and you've got a team underneath you and suddenly you work for somebody that didn't earn it, that has been known within the company to be not a great leader, but suddenly you're buried underneath somebody. That is just not good. You think about it in one sense and you realize look, there's not one thing this individual does that I would ever do.

Speaker 1:

I cannot stand on my laurels like this person does because of their whatever their parents, their previous relationship with another boss, whatever it is, that that person and you and that person will never be in the same place.

Speaker 1:

And so ultimately, you're thinking that this is a dead end, but the truth is is that every crisis is an opportunity, every situation is a learning situation, and you can realize where that person is making mistakes and where they are not taking advantage of the situation they're in, and then you can learn from that. You can learn to work around that person. How are other executives working with this person who is dead weight what does their boss treat? How do their boss treat them? And if you can be objective and not take it personally and realize that you still can learn and you may not learn from when that boss goes, hey, when I do this, this is what you should do, and you're like, oh, tell me more. Tell me more. You can learn more from observing and reflecting than you can from being taught, and I think that in my situations over the years and the advice I've given to people is is, if you can get your ego out of the way, you can learn a lot from a lousy boss.

Speaker 2:

I love it. So I want you to really think about a story from your past. It won't be hard. I know you have a lot to pull from, and what you're saying, too, is you have to change your orientation, and that's true in negotiation, you get the best clarity when you don't allow your emotions to be a filter, and disrespect can really bring up, draw up some emotion. So we're going to talk about that. Share some stories before we get to the tips. So stay right there, because we will be right back. Hey, susie, here, thought I'd pop in. I wanted to let you know. I've been an executive coach for over a decade. I work with executives and they call me their silent partner, because I help them increase their confidence when they're facing really difficult decisions. If you'd like to see if we're a good fit, head over to suzytomichukcom and fill out an application. I'd love to hear from you. Okay, so we're back. James, tell me what story did you draw up around having a lack of respect for your boss? What happened?

Speaker 1:

You know it's funny. This is a little bit of a kind of a dream within a dream story where I was working for an organization that was responsible to provide functionality and services to a very, very powerful and very influential group within a larger firm, and so the stakeholders of our program were big players, well-known, had been. You know, they're respected, they're on TV a lot, they speak for the company. These are not people to be trifled with and in many cases, make more money than senior leadership because of the role that they play. My boss was assigned to directly interface with that leadership and other key stakeholders. The program itself was a challenging one. It was extremely. It was a project that had a lot of competing interests and that the decision, the direction we chose, so the decision we made to go in a certain direction, was not widely supported, and so, as such, those key stakeholders were not playing nice, and, unfortunately, my boss chose to his response to that was to ignore them, and so what he started to do, due to his frustration and his ego, was to not engage with those stakeholders and disregard their inputs and go and drive the program in a direction. From my point of view, and maybe some others, that was suicide. Clearly, those stakeholders were too big and too powerful and too important to disregard. Uh, but, um, my boss felt like that that was the right approach for various reasons, and I can't speak to to uh, just to why that was. And it was.

Speaker 1:

At that point I realized that, um, while I had hoped to witness and learn from how somebody as seasoned as this individual was going to deal with people who were extremely, um, uh, influential, who who in in in casual conversation, when they said the president of the company told me this or said this, it's not because he saw it on TV, it's because they saw. He said it to him in person, right, um, or when I had dinner with Angela Merkel last week, this is what she said these people were not you know, they were very, very, they had a lot of pull in the company and so, to disregard them, there was no positive outcome. So we had to look at that situation and address it. Now, I think for me, while I could talk about how he solved it and the ways that you deal with that, but I think the more important thing is that, the objectivity and the moment when you realize, okay, I'm going to learn a lot from this by not doing that.

Speaker 1:

So imagine yourself in this situation in the future, or I'm in his situation. How would I be handling this? What are the things that I would think he should be doing? Could I be doing some of those as a leader and to show that I have the prowess and can I coach others is what I did mostly was coached others on how we could bridge that gap. Now I will admit that that subsequent conversations with that individual leader, we discussed it in with great honesty and he felt like that was a mistake on his part in hindsight, but at the time it was hard and it was. Am I really working for this guy? Am I really taking direction during this situation? And it was a matter of seeing what could be a learning moment and how could not only I take advantage of it from a career growth perspective, but also how could I help the project move forward, even though I felt like something was not going well.

Speaker 2:

So do you feel like you did the best you could do?

Speaker 1:

I did the best you could do. I think that you know some for the project. You know there's some things you can't, there's some bells you can't unring. I think the project, the program, which was very large and was what did, was handicapped significantly by it. But I do think, from my perspective, it was fascinating to learn to watch a very seasoned individual allow his ego to get in the way, watch a very seasoned individual allow his ego to get in the way and to not take advantage of a program that gave him front row seats to the leadership team of a very large organization and not to take advantage of that. And even being a messenger to the gods with a shitty message is still a messenger to the gods. And so I think that, even if the project wasn't a great one and it wasn't full of harmony, it was still an opportunity for people to own emotions that get involved. And when I think about a negotiation.

Speaker 2:

I remember this guy, andy, I'll never forget I won't say his last name, but it's right there in my head and I was the lead negotiator on our side. I was negotiating for our organization and Andy worked in a network and Andy never saw me as the point person. He always reflected or he always went to and asked the questions of the other people in the room, the other people that he had respect for. And I remember just I losing so much respect for him because he didn't have respect for me and I started challenging some of his assertions around the technology that I had no business being in. But it was like I just wanted to prove that I knew I was trying to gain his respect through the negotiation, which was not a good strategy for me, and it became a battle between Andy and I. That was really a battle that I there was no winner.

Speaker 1:

Right, it was only degrees of losing.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and Andy didn't care about me.

Speaker 1:

He didn't care about winning or losing. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:

So my ability to think about what was important in that that we didn't do well in the negotiation, and all of that had to do with the fact that my focus was on that piece of it, so that lack of respect that you have. My point is, as a leader, when you don't respect the person that you work for, you become clouded around that, and so your example helped see that. How do you move around that? How do you change your orientation and also make sure that you don't allow that to cloud your ability to move forward in a positive way for you and for the business.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think that you know I've had I think we all have, we've had opportunities where the person we work for is ill-suited for the position, promoted incorrectly, maybe temporary, and any one of those situations. I have found great success in working with them and around them I don't want to say going around their back, because that's a little more Machiavellian than I want it to sound, but certainly, if you think about it, if there's a four-lane highway to your boss's boss and your boss is only using the right lane, that's three lanes you can use right, and so why not take advantage of that? If your boss is a lousy communicator upstream, you can be a great communicator upstream. If your boss isn't doing a good job of managing the project, you manage the project and allow yourself to get the visibility that you need. Manage the project and allow yourself to get the visibility that you need. So a good friend of ours has always said never let a crisis go to waste, and I think that if you can take a step back and realize that that person is probably in that role for a reason, and while we all would like to think that we work for companies that make decisions based on merit, that's not how it works and there are so often. It's so often that people are in that role because they're the least painful situation the boss is dealing with right now. I know I've had exit interviews or sat down with senior executives about individuals on their team that need to in my opinion, need to be addressed and that senior person will go.

Speaker 1:

I have five things. This person that we're talking about is right here. He is not burning anything, she is not killing anybody and her organization is fine. These four are on fire. I'm going to jail, I'm court, money guns, lawyers, whatever it ends up being. So this one isn't part of the conversation. So you know that just exists. Now you're not going to fix those other four things, but you're dealing with this one. So now it's how you deal with it, and if you think that somebody from on high is going to come down and solve that for you, that the greater good, that the boss's boss, that mom and dad, you're not in the right job and you're not as senior as you think you are, you need to realize that there are situations you don't understand and may never understand, and you just have to work with it. These are the cards you're dealt and how are you going to make a Royal flush out of you know four sevens, or two sevens and two sixes and a three?

Speaker 2:

I love it.

Speaker 1:

That's not enough.

Speaker 2:

Such good advice and to think about those other three lanes you can use, and if you can also make your boss look good in the interim, like if you can make it a win-win. That's good for the business.

Speaker 1:

Well, I love this analogy I just came up with, but it's a good one. But even just because they're using that one lane doesn't mean you knock them off the road. No, let them go fast, help them go fast. Let me just clear this you just go, go, go, bless your heart. I'm going to take the other three.

Speaker 2:

Yes, love it. All right. So when we come back, we're going to give you three tips. Whether it's you do it, james, or we'll figure it out, but we'll give you tips that you need to really be thoughtful about putting into place. If you were in this situation where there's a lack of trust for the person across the table, the lack of respect, we'll be right back. Hey, suzy, here, I thought I'd pop in.

Speaker 2:

You know, when I was a little girl, I always thought I wanted to be on the stage. I thought I might be holding a microphone and singing. But I'm now on the stage a lot and I love it because it's not about me and that experience. I love to move people, give them an impactful message that really makes them feel confident so that they change their actions. If you know somebody in your network internally that hires speakers, I would love a warm introduction. Just send them to suzytomachukcom speaker page. I would be so grateful. All right, we're back, james. I can't wait to hear your tips. I'm going to totally put you on the spot. So tell me what are your tips for people who are facing a boss that they don't have respect for?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that I'm going to take it one up notch a smidge more. What do you do when you don't respect the leadership team?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, or the person you're negotiating with.

Speaker 1:

either one or the person you're negotiating with, or the team you're negotiating with. Yes, right, I mean, it's really hard. Um, at the end of the day, we are influenced by senior folks and sometimes your boss could be, um, the person that you struggle with. It could be his boss or it could be, you know, his peers, his group. But I think, at the end of the day, there's some good tips I can give as how you can really still succeed and thrive in an environment which is less than ideal. So, you know, first and foremost, I think you need to look at it with a more objective point of view and take a look at the things that you're expecting from your boss and really evaluate that. And are you, do you have a parochial approach as to what the leadership that that boss and and junior or boss and what's give me a word here boss and the uh colleague direct report what that relationship looks like.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the team. Well, team member, but you know you report to this guy or gal and she is your boss and that relationship. You should understand that and look at it from less of a uh, a binary point of view, but more more of a uh, how does that relationship going to work? That, ultimately, when you get to a role that you, that your your direct boss can't do your job they're not replacing you, they're not, you're better at your job than you are Then it's a very different animal.

Speaker 1:

So, the first one, first piece of advice is take a look at your relationship, look in the mirror and really question, question whether or not you're looking at that type of relationship correctly. So the first one is to look inward.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that's number one.

Speaker 1:

The second one is I think very truly you need to understand that everybody look at this as an opportunity and not a crisis. When you discover or determine that your boss is not greater, you've been moved under this other person, realize that, yeah, there are some downsides, this person may not be like your previous boss, who really supported you, et cetera, but there is opportunity in crisis and, again, an objective point of view can help you understand that where you can be successful in this kind of situation.

Speaker 2:

I love. It All right, what's the third one?

Speaker 1:

And I think the third one, too, is is always try to um, uh, make your boss look better. I think this goes without saying, but I think it's so important that that um, from the outside, you can either be somebody who understands the problem and is trying to solve it, or a petulant child who's trying to undermine your boss and the people that are looking at this from the bigger picture. The people are ultimately going to address the situation, or that you ultimately will work with. They will see it for what it is. So you can choose to win the battle, or you can choose to win the war and you want to win the war. So you can choose to win the battle. Or you can choose to win the war and you want to win the war. Undermining your under-talented, under-skilled boss will maybe win the battle, but the war is really becoming their boss or moving them on, or you getting promoted beyond the situation. So you want to focus on the big picture.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so that's the best possible outcome for the business, for your team, for you, for the negotiation. It's all of those things. So the tips are objectivity how do you get objective, how do you look at it as a challenge is number two, so that you can look at it. And then how do you make them look good, was the third one. How do you do that? And what I love about this is you need to zoom out and figure out how you're going to do this. But this is not a one and done. You don't just click something in you that you're going to show up differently. You're still going to look at that person and go oh this is so hard for me to do, they annoy me, I can't. I'm so much better than them. Like, these things are going to get in your way. So you have to come back to these tips and go daily basis Yep.

Speaker 2:

I have to reorient myself until it becomes a habit around this, so you can look at it differently. And what I love about these tips, too, is it helps you in your as you go up as an executive. These are things that you're going to have to face regularly all the time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the more senior you get, the more you realize everybody's an idiot and that nobody is. You know, at the end of the day, we all want to work for the perfect boss, we all want to work for a genius, we all want to have that leadership team, the CEO, the board of directors, to be, you know, the top-notch people, but the truth is that they aren't, and so you have to learn to deal with that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's so good too for negotiation, because if this first time we can identify that the personality on the other side of the table is somebody that we don't want, we don't need to be friends with, but we need to make sure that we do what we need in those moments to show up in a way that gets us to the best possible outcome.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I think in a negotiation, you know you win so many more dividends whether it's whatever you're negotiating when you make the other side look good too. Because if it's a scorched earth strategy which works and you know there's plenty of stories and anecdotes and successful people who follow the Scorcher strategy the truth is is most of us don't have that kind of experience or that kind of leverage, and so if you can identify the reality that this person is not as good as you, but still make them look good, then that's when both of you will win.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a win-win. You make the other person feel like they got something too Exactly, and that's great, all right. We're. You make the other person feel like they got something too Exactly, and that's a great All right. We're going to close out when we come back, so stay with us.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I got in. Hey everybody, I'm James. I'm Susie's co-host on her other podcast, quick Take. You're enjoying this podcast? You're going to love our podcast Quick Take. If you're enjoying this podcast, you're going to love our podcast Quick Take even better, mostly because, well, I'm there, which is infinitely more entertaining.

Speaker 2:

But hey, you'll love it if you join us. Please subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, james, so at the end, you know I'm an executive coach, as you know, and I can talk about I've read your book.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a good book, thank you. Thank you. Read that book Highly recommend it. Read the foreword oh, I should. Yeah, I will. I'll take a look at that, I bet you it's really great. All right.

Speaker 2:

So I always want to challenge people. It's one just go oh, that's good advice. How are you going to put it into action? How are you going to make it?

Speaker 1:

real for you. So what are you going to do differently, james? What are you going to do after listening to your own advice tomorrow? Look, I think the thing I mean to be clear, you know this is advice that I've given lots of people. I think it's advice that I followed, and I think when you're in a situation like this, your mental health is the first and foremost thing that's being challenged. You are dreading to get out of bed. Every day, you are feeling like you are going nowhere. You have this huge weight. It is a giant, wet, stinky blanket that's been left in the washer for too long and you need to.

Speaker 1:

Your next steps need to be addressed that you need to get out of your own head. You need to make this less about your ego, less about your career, and create some objectivity, because until you can be objective about the situation, you cannot take action. My three points are interesting. You can't, but you can't find those wins if you can't get out of your own way, and so the number one thing I recommend to people when they find themselves in this situation is find an avenue which they can breathe and get out of their own way, and allow you to give yourself some space to be objective. It is challenging, it's disappointing, it's disheartening, but it's still an opportunity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's changing your orientation, it's being, it's being able to say all right, I need to make a shift here and how I'm going to make that shift so that I can have more success. That is so good, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's an and situation. You know, um, it's not I have to be miserable or I need to be happy. It's like you know what? I can be miserable and be successful, and I know that's weird, but it's not. You know, if you so often you you will get yourself in a mindset that the only way I can be successful is if she is out of the way. The only way I can be successful is he gets fired. That's not a success-based strategy, right, that is a faith-based strategy or a pray-based strategy, which could work, but I wouldn't recommend. And I think, at the end of the day, if you just accept the fact that you have to get yourself in a place where you can take action and do things that are positive, then you can be a lot more successful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and just like in a negotiation, it's not how do I make them lose. I want to make sure they suffer. I want to give them the raw end of the deal. That's not how do I make them lose. I want to make sure they suffer. I want to give them the raw end of the deal. That is not the goal. The goal is to make everybody feel satisfied.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Right, right, right right.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. Well, I appreciate that you were here today, James. You gave us some great wisdom.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh, I love it so much. It's so great to be on your show. Always fun to chat.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yes, and we appreciate you for listening to this. And if you know somebody that needs to hear this, share this with them as well. And always remember, james, always remember that negotiation is more than a skill, it is a mindset. Until next time, thanks for listening to this episode of Leaders with Leverage. I am so honored that you chose to spend your time with me. If you're ready to accelerate your professional growth and invest in defining the career you want, I have more resources for you.

Speaker 2:

You can join my newsletter, where your inbox will love a Monday minute. It's an easy read, where I share stories of how others are adopting a negotiator's mindset so that you can use these tips so that you can find success every week. And if you want to read my book, the Art of Everyday Negotiation Without Manipulation, I have a special offer just for my listeners. These links can be found in the show notes, and if you want to work with me, there's more information there as well. I'd love for you to be a part of this movement to adopt a negotiator's mindset, because those who do create opportunities for themselves and they believe the investment is completely worth it. Head to the links in the show notes and just remember that I appreciate you.

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