Leaders with Leverage: Adopting a Negotiator Mindset

Introvert vs Extrovert: Leveraging Your Strengths with Sherisse Hawkins

September 03, 2024 • Susie Tomenchok • Episode 104

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Can introverts truly excel in leadership and negotiation roles typically dominated by extroverts? My dear friend, Sherisse Hawkins, an extreme introvert, joins me today to uncover surprising truths about how introverts and ambiverts often outperform extroverts in these high-stakes arenas. Through our contrasting experiences—Sharice's mindful approach and my high-energy style—we reveal the power of authenticity and the unique strengths that introverts bring to leadership positions. You’ll hear personal stories and eye-opening research that challenge traditional business norms, demonstrating that introverts are more than capable of thriving in environments that seem built for extroverts.

In this episode, we talk about the following:
1. Differences between introverts and extroverts in business settings.
2. The success of ambiverts in sales and negotiations.
3. Challenging personality stereotypes and adapting communication styles.

Connect with Sherisse:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherissehawkins/
https://pagedip.com/

The Negotiator's Toolbox is now available!
Get $100 off when you use code TOOLBOX at www.negotiationlove.com

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Speaker 1:

Let's challenge your assumptions about what it means to be an introvert versus an extrovert.

Speaker 2:

Stay right here. Welcome to the Leaders with Leverage podcast. I'm your host and negotiation expert, suzy Tomichuk. It's time to be your own advocate and confidently navigate what you want out of your career, not simply the next role or additional compensation. I want to show you that negotiation happens every day in plain sight, so you need to be ready to opt in and say yes with confidence. This happens by adopting a negotiator's mindset, and I'll show you how, together with other business leaders, you'll learn the essential skills and shifts in mindset you need to know. You will be empowered to naturally advocate for yourself and grow your professional skills, and while you're practicing along the way, you'll increase your confidence and gain respect, all while you're growing into that future leader you're poised to be, and when you face a high stakes situation, you're ready, no matter how high those stakes are. So let's do it. Let's lead with leverage.

Speaker 2:

Hey, welcome to Leaders with Leverage. I am glad that you made the choice to be here today, because I am with one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. I'm not just saying that with one of my favorite people in the whole wide world, I'm not just saying that, sharice Hawkins, we have been business allies together. We are friends. We have shared hotel rooms. We'll just start out TMI all of it right here. So welcome Sharice. I'm so glad to have you here.

Speaker 1:

I'm so glad to be here.

Speaker 2:

It's so fun and one of the reasons I wanted to have you is because we're very different and we're really different in a lot of ways, and one of the ones that's so blatantly different about us is I am like on the extrovert to the max. In fact, when I got tested, I was all the way over on max, and you are just the opposite. In fact, you got tested too and you were all the way over on the other end of the spectrum.

Speaker 1:

It was just like a blip on the very edge, just a blip.

Speaker 2:

Me too. Me too, and what's so interesting to me about this concept is that in negotiations they looked at sales leaders in the research and they looked at who are most successful and at first blush you might think extroverts, of course, are better salespeople, they are more gregarious and they build the relationships. But what they found were amoeverts were the most successful and then introverts second and extroverts last.

Speaker 1:

Isn't that interesting Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's about telling the story and making sure the other person feels understood.

Speaker 1:

I think that's the key right there.

Speaker 2:

Feeling very understood.

Speaker 1:

I've just been experimenting with that more in my own business and the pausing and making sure that the person feels understood and repeating back just a little bit about what they said. As simple as that is and as hard as that is sometimes, that little ninja trick has really, really changed the dynamics of the conversations I've had and I'm talking in the last, I don't know since the beginning of this year, so a relatively recent approach has paid big dividends.

Speaker 2:

And what's the evidence of that? How do you know it's been more successful for you?

Speaker 1:

The pace of the conversation and the pace of the engagement. It feels like you build that rapport faster, you get the trust factor faster and then you can move to the next step. And even if that next step is no, you get to that place faster. And in business, time is everything.

Speaker 2:

As a natural introvert, I'm surprised that this has to be such a mindful practice for you, because I would think I was talking to myself. To slow down, ask questions, pause, but you've had to be more mindful of this. Is it just the opposite of that you?

Speaker 1:

know. I think there's a little bit of an expectation. I don't know what the studies show, but I've heard that. You know, we live in a very extroverted society and so there's this expectation, especially as a business leader, to be an extrovert. So it's like you're unlearning what you learn, to try and be more what is expected, but it really wasn't the right. It's like you zigzag back and forth. So I think for many years I was posing as an extrovert.

Speaker 2:

So interesting because you were an executive and led big teams and now a CEO, and so you had to kind of fake that. Yeah, and it wasn't the right decision. Wow, what would you do differently? Would you have shown up differently back then?

Speaker 1:

I want to say yes, because I do think that the more authentic you are, the more people can feel that and the trust and businesses around doing relationships with people that you know and you trust. We've both been in business for a long time, so I really don't know if I'm being honest, if back then, when there was so much pressure to be in this, the studies hadn't been done yet, the book Quiet hadn't been written yet, all of that, I don't know if I would have had the opportunity to really lean into it. I think we've got more knowledge now and it would be so I'm just being honest. I'd like to say, yeah, sure, I would have done that, but I don't know if I really could have swam upstream.

Speaker 2:

I would have done that, but I don't know if I really could have swam upstream so interesting. I hadn't really thought about how much I'll have to really think about that, because how much of me just being a natural extrovert allowed me to just show up and not have to fake that. Not as much energy for me as it was for you back in the day.

Speaker 1:

So much energy for me as it was for you back in the day.

Speaker 2:

So much energy, so much energy. All right, so when we come back, let's pull some stories about how being an extrovert for me, how being an introvert for you, what's an example of when, in a negotiation or a difficult conversation, you leaned into that or faked it, and what was the results for you? So stay here with me, sharice, because we're going to be right back. Hey, suzy, here, thought I'd pop in. I wanted to let you know. I've been an executive coach for over a decade. I work with executives and they call me their silent partner, because I help them increase their confidence when they're facing really difficult decisions. If you'd like to see if we're a good fit, head over to suzytomichukcom and fill out an application. I'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so we're back, and I wanted you to tell a story, charisse, and just to frame it for you and for the listeners. It's around high stakes, and high stakes doesn't mean it has to be an official negotiation. It's a situation that is meaningful to you, one that you really want to be thoughtful around, having an outcome that is beneficial to you and the other side. So what comes to mind for you? Share with us an experience or a story.

Speaker 1:

That's a good question. Let me think a sec. Well, I think around just leadership and being a technical leader, the model can often be let's have a big team meeting and talk about it as a group and brainstorm, and you know, all those are great things and they provide a lot of energy and a lot of creativity. Don't necessarily draw out the introverts in the group, and I found that in combination with that activity maybe not as much having one-on-ones I had this approach where I would go it's called Wednesday check-ins and I would go around and talk to everybody on my team and it was a lot of people, so it took all day long and just spend some time with them one-on-one and ask a few questions, find out what was on their mind, and it allowed each person to take the time that needed.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes it would be longer or shorter depending on what they were going, what they were dealing with, but everyone loved the ability to have that connection and to really be heard, like we talked about before. And then I'd take that back and put it together in the big master plan and so our projects would come in on time because there was a lot of information being shared, both at the higher level of the group, but also those individual conversations that would allow everyone to feel heard and even if they were introverts, they could have a voice, and I felt like that was a really powerful approach. And, more importantly, the team said please don't ever take away our Wednesday check-in time.

Speaker 2:

So was that, in lieu of doing official one-on-ones, that were set times, and so they were more organic, though. You would just kind of see when somebody was available. How was that different than having it as a schedule? Now, looking back, how do you think that played out?

Speaker 1:

Well, if somebody was busy or they were in the middle of something and I came by their office or their work area, you can tell that, and so you just go someplace else and then come back later. And some people are morning people, like it was that organic and giving people the space to kind of talk when they needed to talk and not feel the pressure of talking in front of a lot of different individuals and I must admit I do think that in the technical realm there are probably more introverts, so this might not have worked for an entire team of extroverts. You know, thinking back on, it might not have been as effective.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but I think there is something to you know, even in the art of negotiation and having that relationship equity when everybody's at the table, so that everybody feels like they have a place. I think you were setting that up so that everybody felt their presence all together, because you had that connection with them and then also they probably had a little bit of insight about the project or something that they came to the table with when all of them were together. That made them feel connected.

Speaker 1:

And you can also do things like say that's a great idea, why don't you mention it in the project meeting? Or everyone wants to hear about that. Like you can encourage in a way that doesn't put them on the spot in the middle of a large setting, which can be very challenging for the younger staff, the more introverted staff, so you can give them a little courage to say stuff later.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know I mean as an extrovert. I would probably leverage a similar approach because for me people that are quiet and need time to think intimidate me. They signal a lot of confidence to me and it's like I can't read their mind because, especially when people are so purposeful about the words they use and they say something and stop, that really throws me off because I can't pull in additional insight about them. So I like that idea of coming, you know, going around butterflying if you will, and understanding kind of the way people think or what's on their mind, because then being there makes me feel like I can kind of understand where they're coming from.

Speaker 1:

I can kind of understand where they're coming from. I'm glad you shared that, because I would have never, it would have never occurred to me that the space between the words, or whatever, can come off as intimidating. It just would have never. That was a really that's a brilliant insight. Learn something today.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, what's funny is I've learned to use that as my way of breaking through. Awkward silence is that I'm. I'm illustrating that I'm not. Awkward silence is that I'm illustrating that I'm not only listening, but I'm illustrating that I'm purposeful. It's very difficult for me to do.

Speaker 1:

That's really cool, very interesting yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so when I think about this, so that was a high stakes situation for you. These are a situation where it's really really important to be purposeful, and we often don't think about that with meetings. We think that, as leaders, we should just have this confidence to bring everybody together and we're just going to rally and we all know the scripts that we follow. But you've just illustrated that this is all a work in progress and every team is different. What do you think about that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think the again, the, the big team dynamics have a place. I'm not saying that they don't have a place, but that is kind of um, the balance isn't there between the, the thorough and thoughtfulness and the sort of the frenziness that can come from one of those larger the loudest person in the room is heard, type of thing, and that doesn't come up. We always met our deadlines. Like people were like how do you guys do that? But it was because we really had both levels the enthusiasm, the vision, the teamwork together, but also how every individual fit into the puzzle. And maybe we made our deadlines because we would know very quickly if something was not working and we could adjust. So I would always say it's better to get information and be able to have time to make changes than to find out the last minute that there's something wrong. So that's probably more accurate than we always made our deadlines is that we could keep them well understood and therefore deliver on those high stakes projects and they were very high stakes projects, as you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we're talking about software releases that go to an entire millions of people, Right, Basically there I just stilled it down Impact to millions of people, so it goes back to that research around. When I think about that research, the amoeverts are good at balancing the storytelling and understanding. I feel like your example is such a great illustration of that, because your storytelling was in the Wednesday whatever you called it connection and the other side of it was so you were understanding, you were telling them a little bit of both in that and then you brought that to the bigger room.

Speaker 1:

And they're both it's. You can't just like what you said. You can't just be an introvert or an extrovert. The most powerful is when you can move between those two different states.

Speaker 2:

And recognize, yeah, that you are and have the power of. Do I need to show up fully as me, or do I need to show up as a hybrid of me, so that the other person feels like they have their space as well?

Speaker 2:

Right right, love it. All right. So you're going to have some tips for us. I'm just going to put you on the spot. So when we come back, we're going to hear Charisse's brilliant wisdom put together in three tips that you can start using today. So no pressure, we'll be right back. Hey, suzy, here. I thought I'd pop in. You know, when I was a little girl, I always thought I wanted to be on the stage. I thought I might be holding a microphone and singing. But I'm now on the stage a lot and I love it because it's not about me and that experience. I love to move people, give them an impactful message that really makes them feel confident so that they change their actions. If you know somebody in your network internally that hires speakers, I would love a warm introduction. Just send them to suzytomachukcom speaker page. I would be so grateful. Okay, charisse, you are on. So what's your first tip when you think about? How are you intentional, when you think about yourself as an introvert, to be successful in a high-stakes situation?

Speaker 1:

You know this about me I am a big, I prepare.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I like the quiet time to think about what's going to happen, run through different scenarios. I love to do public speaking and I will write my entire script out. I won't read it, but I just like to be very prepared and I think that's an advantage of I've read about introverts is that they can run through things. They don't need another party to bounce things off of. They can actually prepare in like a nice quiet space. So have to be prepared. In fact, before this podcast, I was like okay, tell me how I can prepare for this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so it's almost like a rehearsal. It's giving your mind some ways to think through. What am I going to do, so that nothing is a surprise.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think about like rock climbing, like you pick your path and you might get off that path. You might have to do this hold in the moment. But if you have an idea of the journey, just a small plan, you have a lot higher chance of success. Ring that bell.

Speaker 2:

Yes, ring that bell. As you know, yeah, I've not rang that bell. Very often I'm very awkward. Rock climbing yeah, as you know, prepare is a big thing in negotiation, and so having that ability to rehearse, which you've taught me a lot as well, the power of that enables you to be clear headed in the moment. So it's so helpful because it does give you, it allows you to think through those, those climb, those moves that you're going to do. That was such a good analogy and people feel it.

Speaker 1:

I think they feel when you're prepared versus when you're not prepared.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's so important. It's like you care about the conversation, love it. All right, let's just keep going. What's your second tip?

Speaker 1:

I'm big into mindfulness and meditation and so using a breath, using some silence to really be in the space with somebody else, before you start, you know the discussion and then you can notice like what is their, their pace, how, how do, how quickly do they speak? And sort of matching a little bit of of their I don't know what that word is Mirroring.

Speaker 2:

Like mirroring yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Just kind of get in sync and to me that's through some silence and some noticing, not a ton of time, but just being really calm and present for a bit or two?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so what you're saying is once you go into the conversation? Yeah, and so what you're saying is once you go into the conversation, making sure that you're not jumping in, but being really thoughtful about slipping into the water. Don't jump into the pool, Just start at the shallow end and go in. That's such an introverted. That's a great analogy for an introvert. I could see that where an extrovert just jumps into the deep end and just goes for it. I love that one and mirroring is so important. Go ahead.

Speaker 1:

I think introverts and extroverts appreciate not necessarily having a splash all the time Like, oh my gosh, you're going to cannonball and we're going to just a little bit of transition. I think most humans appreciate, and you know, we're going to just just a little bit of of transition. Yeah, I think most humans appreciate. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 2:

No, I think it's great, I agree. And taking breaths, I mean that's really good for me too, because sometimes I get running too fast in the meeting and my pace is that can feel disrespectful to the other side. So I love your idea of taking a moment just to consciously say what is their pace like. Let me try to match that.

Speaker 1:

That's really powerful If they're just trotting. You can get them to gallop. You can nudge them, but you're just pulling with all your might to get them to go faster. You can nudge them, but you're just pulling with all your might to get them to go faster. That can change the dynamic a lot.

Speaker 2:

We are introducing a lot of analogies here, there's horses, rock climbing swimming pools, there's butterflies. We got you covered. You stick right here. All right, what's your third one?

Speaker 1:

This is like a secret hack. I don't know if I want to tell it to you in public, but I will because we're such good friends. I like to take notes and I have this wonderful digital tablet that I like to take notes on. I think you have the same one actually. Yeah, I do. Anyway, I let people know that, for me, just jotting things down helps me keep track, and I'm not being disrespectful, but that act of looking down and writing is also a little moment where you can collect. They don't know what's going on in your head, but you can collect your thoughts, write some things down, not forget stuff, but it's like a little cognitive reset break in a way that doesn't feel as awkward as, just, you know, sitting there in silence or or running at the mouth of it. So I like the note, like changing your gaze and taking a couple notes.

Speaker 2:

I love that, and your secret hack of that is getting. It allows you time to reset or think about what you're going to say next. And while you were saying that, I'm like, oh, that's how I slow myself down so that I'm not jumping into the next thing, so I'm giving their pause in case somebody wants to say something else. So it's very intentional for me too. That's really. Thanks for sharing your hack. It's out, it's out. It's not a secret anymore. It's out in the universe. Okay, so the three are to really be thoughtful and prepare before you go in. The second is to read the cadence of the other party and just take some breaths and mirror what they're doing. And then the third one is to take notes and tell them you're taking notes so that you can get yourself to catch up or think about what's next.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I think this is old school. But I think taking notes when you're typing is a completely different experience. You've got a barrier, You've got sound, but when you're actually taking notes on a digital tablet or whatever writing you know, it doesn't feel as like there's a barrier between you and the other person.

Speaker 2:

You're still in the conversation. Yeah, love that. All right, you did good. Those are great tips. All right, when we come back, we're going to talk about. What do you and I need to stop, start or continue in relation to this conversation? That will make us better tomorrow. We'll be right back.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I got in. Hey everybody, I'm James. I'm Susie's co-host on her other podcast, Quick Take. If you're enjoying this podcast, you're going to love our podcast Quick Take even better, Mostly because, well, I'm there, which is infinitely more entertaining. But hey, you'll love it if you join us. Please subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2:

Okay, charisse, this is where the rubber hits the road. No, is that right? Yeah, the pedal hits the metal. I always get this analogy wrong. I don't even know why I always say it, but, as an executive coach, talking about concepts is great, but applying them is where really where the power is. So let's just go, stop, start and continue. Think about one of those in relation to our topic today pick, stop, start or continue and I want the listeners to do the same thing, but tell us which one are you going to pick and give us some color around it.

Speaker 1:

I had epiphany today talking with you and it was around what the other person's thinking. When there's a period of silence and you talked about, I assume that there's a lot of confidence there. So I'm going to stop assuming that that silence, that people are thinking oh, they don't know what to say next, but that there's an assumption around they're being very purposeful and contemplative and that's a positive thing.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to stop that stereotypical, introverted worry oh, I'm like grinning from ear to ear Cause it's like that is such an important thing to consider and it's so funny how we get in our own mind about what that means to the other person and we don't even know it might be illustrating something completely different. Okay, that's a good one you get. You made me really think about being more purposeful. I do write notes with my remarkable um as I'm going along, but I did it more because I want to remember. But I love the idea of allowing my brain to be kind of reset and giving me time to either change the pace or think about what I'm going to do next. So I think that was brilliant. That was a really great insight.

Speaker 2:

So thank you for sharing that, of course, all right, well, I challenge everybody. Think about what are you going to do differently as an introvert, as an extrovert, whatever that is, maybe as an amoevert, like we've talked about. There's different strategies that actually Sharice and I both use, that we take it from a different perspective. Don't you think, sharice, what was your big takeaway? Absolutely, yeah't you think, charisse, what was your?

Speaker 1:

big takeaway? Absolutely, yeah, I think. Well, even things like just being able to be a little bit of a chameleon when you need to Don't be so structured or think that you can't be an amniabert. It takes practice, but you can Take using your non-dominant side to do something.

Speaker 2:

I love that so much. We label ourselves, yeah, and then we believe that we need to show up of what that stereotypical label means. So you're saying don't do that, stop it.

Speaker 1:

Unlabel yourself. Try to let it go a little bit.

Speaker 2:

I love it All right, Cherise.

Speaker 1:

So how can people find you, follow you, get to know you more. Linkedin is best. I'm the only Cherise spelled S-H-E-R-I-S-S-E Hawkins on LinkedIn, so I'm an original, so you can find me there.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, and we'll have that in the show notes too. If you're looking for Charisse, make sure that you connect with her, get to know her. I really appreciate you taking the time, charisse, to talk about this topic, especially as an introvert not that I'm stereotyping you, but especially as an introvert. Yeah, I appreciate you showing up for me Well, and we're both happy that you made the choice to share this time with us as well. We'd love to hear from you whether you are more like me as an extrovert, more like Charisse as an introvert, or where you fall in that spectrum. Let us know what your strategies have been to show up as a better leader and in high stakes situation. And before we go, I just want to remind you negotiation is more than a skill, it's a mindset. Thanks, charisse, until next time. Thanks, charisse, until next time.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Leaders with Leverage. I am so honored that you chose to spend your time with me. If you're ready to accelerate your professional growth and invest in defining the career you want, I have more resources for you. You can join my newsletter, where your inbox will love a Monday minute. It's an easy read where I share stories of how others are adopting a negotiator's mindset so that you can use these tips so that you can find success every week. And if you wanna read my book, the Art of Everyday Negotiation Without Manipulation, I have a special offer just for my listeners. These links can be found in the show notes and if you want to work with me, there's more information there as well. I'd love for you to be a part of this movement to adopt a negotiator's mindset, because those who do create opportunities for themselves and they believe the investment is completely worth it. Head to the links in the show notes and just remember that. I appreciate you.

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Susie Tomenchok

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