Leaders with Leverage: Adopting a Negotiator Mindset

The power of the frame with Diana Cano

• Susie Tomenchok • Episode 87

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Unlock the leadership prowess that lies within you as Diana Cano, a transformative figure in IT leadership, joins us to distill her vast experience into powerful strategies for your career advancement. From the factory floor to the forefront of tech innovation, Diana's approach intertwines engineering principles with astute business acumen, offering a compelling narrative on simplicity in solution design and adaptability in the face of change.

Brace yourself for an exploration of the art of framing, where Diana lays out her blueprint to seize attention and communicate with unambiguous clarity. Grasping the nettle of complexity in negotiations, she guides us through the labyrinth of options to unearth outcomes that resonate with all stakeholders. Her storytelling prowess, seasoned with the 'why, what, and how' framework, not only captivates but also aligns and motivates, ensuring you leave with an arsenal of actionable advice to mold your professional conversations to your advantage.

In this episode, we talk about the following:
1. Diana's career journey from factory automation engineering to IT management.
2. The importance of framing in negotiation.
3. Tips for effective framing.

Connect with Diana Cano:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianacano/
https://bluecairn.net/

The Negotiator's Toolbox is now available!
Get $100 off when you use code TOOLBOX at www.negotiationlove.com

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leaders with Leverage podcast. I'm your host and negotiation expert, susie Tomichuk. It's time to be your own advocate and confidently navigate what you want out of your career, not simply the next role or additional compensation. I wanna show you that negotiation happens every day in plain sight, so you need to be ready to opt in and say yes with confidence. This happens by adopting a negotiator's mindset and I'll show you how, together with other business leaders, you'll learn the essential skills and shifts in mindset you need to know. You will be empowered to naturally advocate for yourself and grow your professional skills, and while you're practicing along the way, you'll increase your confidence and gain respect, all while you're growing into that future leader you're poised to be, and when you face a high-stakes situation, you're ready, no matter how high those stakes are. So let's do it. Let's lead with leverage. So let's do it. Let's lead with leverage.

Speaker 1:

Hey, welcome. I am so glad you made the decision to be here today because I have a very good friend of mine, special guest, amazing woman, diana Kano. How are you, diana?

Speaker 2:

I'm good Susie. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 1:

I am so glad you're here, friends. This woman is a wise woman that I have had the pleasure of knowing for a few years. But, diana, since nobody here knows you as well as I do, tell me a little bit, just tell me, about your career. Give us a little bit of a glimpse into the journey, of how you've gotten where you are.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure, so I started off as an engineer factory automation engineering. I was on the plant floor for about 10 years putting robotics and conveyors and safety equipment onto factory floors and I loved it. Great job in your 20s. I got to see how a lot of different things were made, got to see a lot of the world during that timeframe, so I'd say that was like career phase one right. Then we move on to career phase two. After I got my master's I went into IT and I've been there for the last 20 something years and really I think that you know my kind of utilitarian approach to technology. That my kind of utilitarian approach to technology is what sort of drives me every day, like I always think about this great new thing in tech, but what can it do for me and what can it do for others? And I think that kind of comes from that first 10 years doing factory automation and robotics and trying to make processes simpler and better for the people that are working there Awesome.

Speaker 1:

And so tell me about your leadership along the way. I love, and I love your passion around just knowing what you love and I I'm not an engineer, but I have so many friends that are but you have so much passion about what your brain was meant to do, so tell us about your leadership too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure. So when I went into IT, I started off in a role for managing systems for a client. So, again, using that kind of client facing work that I had done for the 10 years Started off in the client services side and then shifted to really broader IT management. So I was the CIO for a division K-12 education division. I was the CIO for a global division. We spent a couple of years in the UK managing contracts and services there for Europe, services there for Europe and then came back to the US and worked in enterprise architecture for a period of time, really at a time when enterprise architecture was going through a big change as companies were moving to the cloud.

Speaker 2:

So I've always been like in the middle of a change process. I've always been the one to like get into something messy and try to figure out the best path forward. So I've had a very I call it my rock wall career. You know, taking on leadership positions, especially in challenging circumstances, and really trying to figure out how to move people through those changes and how to, you know, make it easier for them to move along with technology advances, gosh and so many people are listening going.

Speaker 1:

That is today. There's so many leaders that are really challenged right now, moving through change, and so, yeah, it's great that you embrace that and you wrote a book about it. Tell us a little bit about your book.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've got a co-author. He and I wrote this book called Management is Not Rocket Science, it's just physics and the whole idea is you know as engineers.

Speaker 2:

You know I started taking physics classes when I was probably, you know, 15 years old. Right In high school. You're taking physics classes and then continue that. So a lot of us think in terms of friction and forces on a body, and you know we call it free body diagram.

Speaker 2:

I still use those mental models today when I think about management challenges, right? So what kind of forces are happening on this particular set of people or this particular process? How can I diagram that Were the forces that are going to move us forward, the forces that are going to hold us back? And then how do we sort of convert that mindset around physics to all of these new challenges we have today, because this is the way we work today. So, taking a familiar framework that some people might have and a lot of folks like me from mechanical engineering, it's a very familiar framework, and a lot of folks like me from mechanical engineering, it's a very familiar framework and then just translating that to how to work better with people, how to implement a change when you know some people are nervous about it.

Speaker 1:

You created something like it's so funny when you were describing that I can tell how different our brains work and that framework is not something I'm I know, I know, but that is so great because that it applies right to leadership. There's so many people that are listening, that are from that background, that are going to benefit from your book. But we're going to talk about framing today, right? Yeah, you love framing, so we'll talk about the art of framing. Yeah, so you're going to give us some good advice on that as well?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Some good advice and maybe some things. You know that challenges I've run into that have been tricky right so we learn along the way. So some of these tricky things that maybe I've seen can help somebody else.

Speaker 1:

I love it. So if you want to hear some of Diana's tricky stories, stay tuned, we will be right back. I just want to jump in and let you know I wrote a book. It's the Art of Everyday Negotiation Without Manipulation. It's really a book about my experiences the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it and how I learned with confidence to advocate for myself and move through negotiation in my everyday life at home and at work. If you'd like to grab a copy, go to suzytomichukcom. You can get it there and I'd love if you did.

Speaker 1:

All right, we're back and we're going to hear some tricky stories from Diana. We're going to talk about framing. So let me just say, let me frame it up. For us Got to always like frame it up. It's really helping the other party understand your perspective or where you're coming from. It's framing the kind of the journey that you want the negotiation to take or the conversation to take, so that you know you're in the same perspective, if you will. And then for me, framing I always think about you frame at the beginning and you reframe as you're understanding and collecting where that other party sits or understands. So do you agree with that, diana? Is that kind of-.

Speaker 2:

I do. And I think, susie, what you're really talking about is making sure you're meeting expectations right, that you're clearly stating them and so that everybody's on the same page with what you're trying to accomplish, and to me, I think that's half the battle.

Speaker 1:

Totally, do you have a tricky story?

Speaker 2:

We had a state contract and we were looking to renew that contract state contract and we were looking to renew that contract and there was a set of deal points on the table. The lead negotiator kind of was able to tick through some of those business items. They brought me in because there was this. They called it a deal breaker on browser compatibility. Like anybody in technology has dealt with this before, your client gives you a list of things that you need to do, and browser compatibility is one of them.

Speaker 2:

This program was for K-12 schools and we know K-12 schools don't always have the most up-to-date equipment, don't have the latest versions. So this became a deal breaker. Right, we weren't compatible with everything they wanted us to be, and so we really said you know, we have to move them off of this, but they were. The business team was really struggling with how to do that. So in preparation for that session, I was like, okay, why are we here?

Speaker 2:

You know what's the why, and so I always like to start with the why and the what in my head before we get to that. How right. So what I said is hey look, if we agree to this, it's going to hamper our collective ability to deliver a good experience for students, because if we have to revert back to an old way platform, it's going to be like you know we're going to be, you know, looking bad to those students. We're going to be the Atari when what they want is you know, kind of VR experience, right, I mean, we're going to be sliding backwards and we're going to get. We, collectively, are not going to succeed, and they their position was straight on this compatibility issue, but their interest was where we were talking about a good experience for the students, right, yeah, so I was like okay let's focus on these interests.

Speaker 2:

So, of course, you know, when we're kind of in the conversation and their awareness started to kind of pull up as to how I was positioning, you know my, my solution, their first reaction was this visceral reaction, like I'm trying to get out of their requirement. I'm trying to, you know, put one over on them or, you know, sort of put them in a bad position. And this is a negative emotion they had. Frankly, it was frustration for them, not just me, but about their own frustration with schools and technologies and not being able to move forward with some of the things that they wanted to do and that was their interest, right. So we started to pull back on this and you know, my normal kind of approach to conversations like this is I do pull in the data. I'm a data-driven, decision-making kind of person, of course you do. We pulled in the data. So we looked at the data right there at the table and the other side of the table folks are a little nervous about kind of what's happening at that side of the table and we pulled out the data and what we did is we did create a path forward, like treating the schools that had this obsolete technology more as an exception than the rule, right?

Speaker 2:

So once we did that, we said, okay, we can commit to a solution for all of them, but the solution might be a little different for those that need the extra attention versus those that were already compatible, right.

Speaker 2:

So we actually could come up with a way to upgrade the schools that needed the upgrades, or offer, I'll say, an exception-based solution for those schools that couldn't.

Speaker 2:

So we on the technical side of the table come to this conclusion and we turn back to our business partners and they're sort of waiting with bated breath and we said, look, it's in all of our best interest to upgrade the school technology, because there are other things that students need in their learning, there are other resources that they need. So it's important for everybody that we upgrade this. And I framed that solution like how the experience would be better for all the students while still not leaving anybody behind, because that's the real concern people have is, you know, we don't want to leave anybody behind. And telling that story of the vision of where we all were going to go together, everyone could get behind. That we could all say, yeah, that's how we're going to deal with this point that we were so stuck on and being able to develop a solution. It was a more complex solution than just taking the box, but it was a better solution in the end for us, for the students and for everybody.

Speaker 1:

Wow, it's so interesting as you were going through it and I love the understanding, the interests, understanding the why and it's like in your mind when you're going to reframe, you got to be thinking about where do you need, where do I need to lead them, and that's exactly what you did. I love that you were really thinking about not being. You were objective enough to be outside of you to understand what the room needed and reframe it that way. That was such a great example. When we come back, diane and I are going to put together our best tips to be the best framer that you could be. We'll be right back, because it's not about me and that experience.

Speaker 1:

I love to move people, give them an impactful message that really makes them feel confident so that they change their actions. If you know somebody in your network internally that hires speakers, I would love a warm introduction. Just send them to suzytomachukcom speaker page. I would be so grateful. All right, so we're back with some tips for you and, taking the wisdom from Diana, we're going to let her drive the tip. So what's tip number one, diana?

Speaker 2:

Tip number one put the last slide first. So as engineers, we always like talk about all of the information we're building up and we always have all of our homework done and we always have all the background and we're anxious to talk about all that. Put the last slide first. Bring your recommendation, your rationale, right to the front, so that everybody knows where you're going. If there's some mystery to that, they're going to be distracted by that mystery. So tell them where you're going and then tell them how you got there.

Speaker 1:

Gosh, I love that so much. You know that's actually for storytelling. They say that as well is help the person know where to go, because if not, they're searching for the reasons. You're telling them all this stuff, and if you tell them before, then they can take the data. They can kind of, like you said, calmly be in their seat and then they understand where everything fits. Ooh, that one's good, that one's really good, all right, what's the second one? I'd say don't be afraid to open that can of worms?

Speaker 2:

Tell me more. So if you think that it's a yes no answer in your negotiation, you're missing potentially a better solution by opening up a can of worms to create a solution together that you can both live with. And I love in sort of group decision-making this notion of yes or no, but it's also about can I live with that? And that's really what we're talking about. And sometimes that can of worms gives you that place that you can both be together.

Speaker 1:

Oh, and being able to be okay with it being a can of worms and being messy to figure out, but we do, we avoid it.

Speaker 2:

I mean, and you can't do it for every issue, but you can do it at least for some of those key issues that are particularly thorny and where those positions are particularly concrete.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know what this reminds me of too. I was in sales, you were in engineering, and so even those internal conversations where you know those people so well, you know what they're going to say on both of our sides right, but if you can get to that faster and start to unravel and figure out how you're going to move it forward, just get to the can of worms as soon as you can. I love that. That's so good. All right, what's the third one, my third tip?

Speaker 2:

would be to create the story in your close right when you're looking for that final agreement. Talk about the why, talk about the what. Get that story out there that you all can agree on, and then the how comes after that, and the how is where you need your agreement. But in reality, if you tell it the way of the why, the what and then the how, that vision is something that everybody can agree to and come together on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, telling the story. We know that storytelling is so key to that connection between people and understanding, but we forget that it belongs in meetings with people that we know every day in negotiations, when we're getting really close. What a great way to kind of bring the room back together and help them understand that you know, kind of like what do you think about it? It's almost like the way you're going to march forward together in partnership now that you have an agreement. Is that how you?

Speaker 2:

look at it. Yep, that's exactly right. Yeah, there's a tool called the concept of operations which really does sort of formulate how you're going to get to that goal Right, but it is that goal that you all need to be really on the same page with Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And in negotiations and meetings and everything because everything is negotiation it's always riddled with poor communication or misunderstandings because we sit in our own head. And so so much through your story and through your tips today really illustrated how important it is to make sure that you're listening, to understand the other side of the table all the time, so that you can reframe in a way to make sure they're with you, side by side with you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and Susie, I think it's even more important today when so many of us are remote. Oh yeah, the one thing we can connect on are these stories.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's so good, all right. So I'm going to see if I can remember them. So the first one was the last slide first, so tell them where they're going. The second one was jump right into the. The third one was end with a story and bring that connection back together. Oh, you're brilliant. You're brilliant, all right, you know what's coming next, because you can't just talk about it. We have to apply it. So when we come back, diana and I are going to be challenged to say what are we going to stop, start and continue doing in relation to what we've learned today about framing? We will be right back.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I got in. Hey everybody, I'm James. I'm Susie's co-host on her other podcast, Quick Take. If you're enjoying this podcast, you're going to love our podcast Quick Take even better, Mostly because, well, I'm there, which is infinitely more entertaining. But hey, you'll love it if you join us. Please subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1:

All right, my favorite part, where you have to put the pedal to the metal or the rubber to the road, however you want to look at it stop, start and continue. As an executive coach, it's great to know about the concepts of leadership and being a professional and really understanding negotiation, adopting that mindset, but until you think about what you're going to stop, start and continue you're not going to make the change that you need to make. So I'm putting the challenge to Diana today. So let's start with stop, diana. What are you going to stop doing as it relates to framing?

Speaker 2:

today. So let's start with stop, diana. What are you going to stop doing? As it relates to framing, susie, you have made me think about a current situation I'm in. Okay, you're making me think about how I can do better with this current situation, and I have two people that have these two positions and I'm trying to negotiate a solution in the middle. I think the best thing I can do right now for them is to stop talking to them just one-on-one, and I got to bring them together to kind of come together on solutions. I think we've had enough conversations around what their positions are and why they're looking to do what they're doing. I got to bring these guys together, and so that's my stop doing.

Speaker 2:

Stop doing the one-on-one bring them together.

Speaker 1:

I love that, because sometimes we get caught up in even the emotion, but makes everybody feel comfortable and all of that. And to get resolution and move forward, sometimes we have to break the habit that we've created for ourselves. So I love that. Bring them together. Do you want to name names right here so they know that you're going to do that? I'm kidding, I do not. Ooh, this is juicy. All right, what are you going to start doing? What are you going to start doing?

Speaker 2:

I want to hop to the close. I feel like we've done our preparation, We've done our homework, We've talked about our concerns, We've talked about the risks associated with choosing this particular tool. We got to hop to the close. So I have to start the next conversation with them that we are going to leave the room with a decision. You know it's that analysis paralysis piece that we're all a little. You know it's kind of easier to stay in analysis paralysis than it is to just hop to that close.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's great. Is there any way that you can give them a timeframe or something? Can you? Is there something that could be a catalyst to really to make?

Speaker 2:

that happen. Oh, you just made me thought of something. Our collective boss is on vacation next week.

Speaker 3:

They're on spring break.

Speaker 2:

So I could say, hey, we got to get this done next week because when they come back they're going to ask us, and so let's use that one right.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yes, I love that. Right, you know, what's so funny is there are things that we can create. It is something that can push things forward, like I always give people permission to go, say your executive coach told you to take this challenge on, but you're right, you can have a catalyst can be let's make this decision before the boss comes back.

Speaker 2:

We need to do that, and then we can make that recommendation, we can talk about where we came together and we can represent it together. It's a great way for this person to come back, knowing that something else is off of their list right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love this. This is such a great example of how it just happens in our every day, so what are you going to continue doing as it relates to framing, I have to keep reminding them the why and the what.

Speaker 2:

They're really concerned about making a change in either direction and the other guy winning. And I have to make sure we say you know, here's the why and here's the what. This is what we want to do and this is why we want to do it. We want to pick one way to handle reporting out to executives Like it has to be consistent. Do we all agree on that? Yes, we all agree on that.

Speaker 2:

So now let's talk about the how, and so I really want to keep grounding them on that, because if I ground them on that, then they'll shift from positions that they're in.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, Do you think that maybe having challenging them to see it from the other person's perspective, like taking on that you know, see, like if you were them, what would you say, Do you think that would be helpful to them? I?

Speaker 2:

did that in my one-on-ones but I haven't yet tried that as a group. That might be interesting, I like that. Bring them together. Yeah, because I've done it one-on-one. Think of what so-and-so is facing with this. Think of what so-and-so is facing with this. This is why they're kind of coming at it, but I haven't said that in the group setting. Maybe that's a great way to kick off this next conversation. I love it.

Speaker 1:

I'll do it. Yeah, I love that too, because then that's going to bring them together like that uncomfortableness of them having to do that Cause it sounds like there's a little bit of emotion around the situation. That gives them that ability to understand it from a different lens.

Speaker 2:

And here the other person explained that in the moment I love it All right, susie.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to do it All right, Susie. I'm going to do it All right, All right. I can't wait to hear and this will probably this will air after. So then you can let them listen to it. You can say oh, my plan worked, Diana. It's been such a fun and such a pleasure. I'm going to have you back. I think we should talk about these real coaching life stuff. So I think it's good, Tell people how to find you on LinkedIn and remind us the title of your book.

Speaker 2:

Sure, I'm Diana Kano on LinkedIn. Feel free to follow me there. I try to put content out there on a regular basis, so I would love for people to give me some feedback and start the conversation through comments and stuff there. And our book is called. Management is Not Rocket Science, it's Just Physics, and you can find it on Amazon.

Speaker 1:

I love that title so much. Well, well done. Thank you so much, diana. It's been such a pleasure. If you want to connect with me, you can go to negotiationlovecom. I'd love to hear from you, but before we go, I want to congratulate you for taking the time to be here today and to remind you that negotiation is more than a skill it's a mindset. Until next time.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Leaders with Leverage. I am so honored that you chose to spend your time with me. If you're ready to accelerate your professional growth and invest in defining the career you want, I have more resources for you. You can join my newsletter, where your inbox will love a Monday minute. It's an easy read, where I share stories of how others are adopting a negotiator's mindset so that you can use's mindset, so that you can use these tips so that you can find success every week. And if you want to read my book, the Art of Everyday Negotiation Without Manipulation, I have a special offer just for my listeners. These links can be found in the show notes, and if you want to work with me, there's more information there as well. I'd love for you to be a part of this movement to adopt a negotiator's mindset, because those who do create opportunities for themselves and they believe the investment is completely worth it. Head to the links in the show notes and just remember that I appreciate you.

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Susie Tomenchok

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