Leaders with Leverage: Adopting a Negotiator Mindset

Harnessing the unspoken with Dr. Katie Ervin

• Susie Tomenchok • Episode 83

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Ever wondered how the simple act of staying silent could amplify your leadership and negotiation skills? Prepare to be enlightened as Dr. Katie Ervin, CEO of Catalyst Development, joins us to unpack the strategic power of pausing. Together, we dissect how a moment of quiet can not only boost your emotional intelligence but also shape the dynamics of a conversation, ensuring every voice is valued and heard.

In this episode, we’re equipping you with actionable strategies to refine your conversational prowess. You'll find practical methods for incorporating intentional silence into your daily interactions, transforming every meeting and discussion you partake in. So, brace yourself to harness the unspoken force of silence, and let's revolutionize the way we communicate in the professional world, one pause at a time.

In this episode, we talk about the following:
1. The importance and power of silence in negotiation and leadership.
2. Strategies for incorporating silence into leadership practices.
3. Tips for accountability and continued improvement in practicing silence.

Connect with Dr Katie Ervin:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katieervin/
http://www.katieervin.com

The Negotiator's Toolbox is now available!
Get $100 off when you use code TOOLBOX at www.negotiationlove.com

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Speaker 1:

Silence is powerful in negotiation, but also in leadership. I have a special guest that's going to tell you more. Stay right here. Welcome to the Leaders with Leverage podcast. I'm your host and negotiation expert, suzy Tomichuk. It's time to be your own advocate and confidently navigate what you want out of your career, not simply the next role or additional compensation. I want to show you that negotiation happens every day in plain sight, so you need to be ready to opt in and say yes with confidence. This happens by adopting a negotiator's mindset, and I'll show you how, together with other business leaders, you'll learn the essential skills and shifts in mindset you need to know. You will be empowered to naturally advocate for yourself and grow your professional skills, and while you're practicing along the way, you'll increase your confidence and gain respect, all while you're growing into that future leader you're poised to be, and when you face a high stakes situation, you're ready, no matter how high those stakes are. So let's do it. Let's lead with leverage.

Speaker 1:

Hey, welcome. This is Adopting a Negotiator Mindset, and I'm so glad you made the choice to be here. I am super excited because I have a really close friend here, leadership expert Dr Katie Irvin. Katie, I'd love for you to tell people about you before we kind of get into the meat of what we're going to talk about today. So tell us about you and how it came to be where you are running the business that you have.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks, susie. I am so excited to be with you today. I love your work and I love what we're going to talk about today. So, yeah, I am Dr Katie Irvin. I am the CEO and founder of Catalyst Development. We are located in Kansas City, but we do work all over the United States and in Canada and we tell people we are a leadership development company. We are not why you should be a leader, but the actual how of it, and so we teach real intentional leadership skills and help people really do the work to be strong leaders.

Speaker 2:

How I got here? I love this because it's a long and winding road and I'm very proud of that, because I think some people get into business and think it's supposed to be this easy straight path and it's not at all. And so I spent 14 years in corporate HR. I spent another 12 years in higher ed administration. My bachelor's is in sociology and psychology, so about people and understanding people and the dynamics of people. My master's is human resources development and then my doctorate is adult education leadership. And the reason why that's important is because of the work that we do at Catalyst Development is rooted in my education, in my research and then in my work experience, so it's truly I kind of tease. I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, like I literally have been doing this for 26 years to create Catalyst Development.

Speaker 1:

Wow, that's so great and I love that. You said, too, you're teaching people the how it's easy to read the book or try to figure it out. But leadership really is something that is an evolution that you're always working on, and we forget that we look at it as a destination. So I love that we're going to talk today about silence and how to use it and, with your lens around leadership, that'll add such an interesting nugget or an interesting perspective. So how do you look at silence? How would you define it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love this topic because I always tell people when I'm facilitating, like I love awkward silence, because silence to me is that pause, silence to me is such a critical part of emotional intelligence, because emotional intelligence is, you know, not just how I'm impacting others but how people are impacting me. I'm impacting others, but how people are impacting me. And so that silence, that pause, that soaking it all in, allows all of the senses to really grasp what's going on in the room so you can hear and you can see and you can feel and you can sense, and it allows for that processing to happen. And I think silence is just critical as a leader processing uh to happen, and I think silence is just critical.

Speaker 1:

As a leader, I do too, and I love what you said about how it allows you to get some intel about what's going on. I love that, all of the senses and everything that you said. And also we think that silence triggers or illustrates that we don't know or we're without, but really what it signals to others is confidence and competence and thoughtfulness and caring. So it really we practice silence sometimes and we get uncomfortable with it, but we're really signaling something different. So I'm excited. When we come back, I'd love for you to share some stories. That really illustrates the power of this. We'll be right back. Hey there, love this podcast.

Speaker 1:

I'm taking 10 seconds out of this episode to ask you to leave an honest review. More reviews on the show help us to reach more professionals who are ready to lead with leverage. Now let's continue the conversation. Ready to lead with leverage? Now let's continue the conversation. All right, so we're back and it's story time. I'd love to get the context of something like this concept in real life, because it helps us understand the application, the how, as you said. So, katie, I'd love for you to share a couple stories with us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, when we started talking about the topic of silence, the first thing that really popped in my head as a leader is it's so important for us to embrace and appreciate silence.

Speaker 2:

And, as an extrovert, I will talk sometimes to get to the point and then we just talk right past the point, and that's how extroverts are.

Speaker 2:

And so to be an extroverted leader, which, with the assumed power, can create some challenges, so I have to really practice to really make sure that I sit in silence and that you know I am pausing to allow everyone else to speak. And so, you know, for one-on-one conversations, I have a woman who works for me. She's phenomenal, she is also an extrovert, and so for me to get to the point and then to pause and to allow her to process and for me not to assume what she is trying to say, I think so often too, as leaders, we try to put things into other people's voices, into, you know. Okay, here's my, here's probably what you're feeling, and it's like, no, we need to sit in silence and allow them to process and respond. And, um, you know, when we first started talking about the topic of silence, that's the first thing that popped into my head is. As leaders, we need to make sure that we allow space.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think it is important to practice it because you get really excited, especially extroverts, and especially if you're surrounded by somebody that has similar energy to you, and you almost get caught up in that energy, and so that dialogue just kind of takes on a life of its own. And so, thinking about practicing it and being you got to almost make yourself have that mindset around it. That's why I heard you saying it too is to really hone in on how you're going to apply it in that situation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right and it's you know, whether you're in small groups or large groups. I mean, at Catalyst we do a lot of large group facilitation and I tell people all the time I actually really enjoy awkward silence because to me it's not awkward, to me it is allowing everyone in the room to process, but it also kind of triggers to me the extroverts in the room that they don't have to fill the space. I think so often people feel like they have to fill that space of silence and there's great power in that pause and that processing. And so I will tell people at the beginning of a facilitation session like, just so everyone knows, very comfortable and awkward silence. Let's allow that to happen and so we can naturally get to where we're headed, as opposed to trying to just fill the air with room. And I think that allows for deeper conversation, I think it allows for everyone to have voice, it allows for a lot of practice on everyone's part and I think that that gives great power to our whole room.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's like you're making space for everybody, because some people fill it, some people don't. And I love that signaling of you're going to hear a lot of this, because then when it happens, it doesn't feel as awkward to the participants. I think that's a powerful way for leaders to insert it in a way that people can get used to that as well, because they're learning. They're learning how to do it too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and I think too early in my career I was not comfortable with silence, like I just would.

Speaker 2:

I would just keep going and going and going and I found I mean we do a lot of work with emotional intelligence and and so being an extrovert and then being very passionate about things that we do, you know, I always thought that I had to just keep going and going and going and I had to learn, like even when I was talking to my boss early in my career, I would be like I need to just pause and process and hear and understand what you're saying, so I can make sure that I'm giving you the most thought out answer, that I'm processing everything, because if I don't let my brain process it, sometimes my tongue will just spit out anything before my brain can catch up.

Speaker 2:

So I have to be very aware of that from an emotional intelligence standpoint, and so I will even share with people. Like when they're sharing something with me, I'll say you know, I need to sit in silence for a second so I can let let everything sink in and I can hear everything. Um, because I don't want to just give my initial gut reaction. I want to really be able to respect what someone is saying to me, and I want to really be able to hear it, hmm.

Speaker 1:

Wow, I think that's so great. It made me think about the research that we don't listen to the people that we're around the most, because we get so used to their cadence and we get so used to their answers that we almost wait for the silence so that we can insert what we want to say no-transcript.

Speaker 2:

there's hearing, which you just naturally do with your ears, but then there's that listening that takes real intentional work and, to your point, there's so oftentimes that we are just listening to hear as opposed to really actively listening and processing and giving the full weight into the conversations that we're having.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I can't wait to hear your tips for people that they can put into place right now. So when we come back, katie, I'm going to put you totally on the spot and I'm sure you'll come up with three great tips that people can take away and apply the how right away. So we'll be right back All right. So this is where the rubber hits the road. These are the three tips to put these in place. So, katie, what is your first tip?

Speaker 2:

three tips to put these in place. So, katie, what is your first tip? Yeah, I think the first tip is for everyone to acknowledge that it takes intentional work. We talk about, you know, with leadership it's not you check a box and you're done. It takes that work and that practice. And so it's so important that we, you know, really do the work to practice silence, and so that will be acknowledging it within ourselves, that will be, you know, even that start to talk and then like back it up kind of thing. And so really really leaning into doing the work and knowing you're not going to be perfect, even after you practice it and you've been doing it for many years it just doesn't come natural for everybody. Again, for an extrovert, it's not very natural for us to allow things to sit in the air, and so really practicing that, I think, is the number one, probably top tip that I have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and as an extrovert too, I totally understand that I'll have this intention to do it, but then when I get into it it's hard for me to remember. So for me to be intentional, reminding myself right before I go in what I need to practice in that, maybe breathing or doing something that signals me in that moment.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that trigger point I think is really important, like, okay, I know that when I start to say something, okay, suck it back in.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, suck it back in. Or when they're done talking, just let me stop. That's another trigger point. When they're done I don't have to jump right back in. So that intentionality it starts up here, definitely starts up here. All right, so that was a good one Intentionality. What's the second tip?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the other tip is and this is something that I had to learn is we don't always have to have something to add. Sometimes we feel like someone tells a story and it's like, oh, I've got a story to match that, or, oh, let me add to that, or let me do this, let me do that. And I have to intentionally say to myself does that add value? Does that make sense? Are we just trying to fill space? Are we trying to keep the conversation going? Because so often that can come across a way we don't intend it to or want it to. It can come across as we're trying to one-up or we're trying to, you know, overspeak or something like that.

Speaker 2:

And so there's oftentimes that someone will be telling a story that I get really excited about, or I'm really interested in, or I had a very similar experience to them, and I'm like, oh, I want to, I want to add to it. And it's like you know what? Sometimes you just let them have the moment and have the conversation or have this spotlight. And so I have to intentionally say to myself does that add value? Does it make sense? Why are you sharing this? And it allows me to kind of internalize and work through it, as opposed to just the minute they stop speaking, be like and there was this time that I did this too, and it allows them to have the spotlight.

Speaker 1:

Gosh, it's such a good one. And what I just the other day I told a story that was really. It was really kind of hard for me to somebody I really care about a lot, and they jumped right into their story and I remember thinking like, can I, can you just respond to what I just said? And I felt so mad and it was like, oh, that's what it must feel like around me a lot. It's like, let me have my moments, let me have that. I love. That is not get in your own way. Yeah, oh, so hard to do. What a great tip. Yeah, yeah, all right. What's your third one?

Speaker 2:

The final tip for me is something that I practice a lot is just taking notes, and so what I will do when someone is talking and I want to kind of like break in and help or support or add value or acknowledgement or something like that, I will just write notes.

Speaker 2:

Because that also helps me process, does it add value, does it make sense. And then it also allows me to focus, because so often if I don't make notes, I'm sitting there processing in my brain like don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. So when I just jot something down real quick, it allows me to really focus on the person and to be able to be there with them, and it allows me to sit in silence and hear them, as opposed to me having the noises in my brain going, going, going, because I think when we talk about silence, there's also those voices and things that are going in my brain going, going, going. Because I think when we talk about silence, there's also those voices and things that are going in our brain that distract us from really really hearing and listening. And so I will just get something out of my brain to allow me to sit there and really actively listen to someone. So just jotting notes and being there and being present, I think is really powerful.

Speaker 1:

Do you signal that to somebody, especially virtually, Like? How do you let people know what you're doing so they feel like you're still in the conversation?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I will tell people a lot of times. I'm just going to take notes just because I want to make sure that you know I'm not interrupting you or distracting you, and so I may jot something down, but just know that that's what I'm doing and I will. I used to do it in my phone, but I feel like people make assumptions that you're doing something separate, so I will. Whether it's a Post-it or my planner or something like that, I will actually have physical pen and I think people see that differently than if you're just typing into your phone or on your laptop.

Speaker 1:

Oh, and I think people see that differently than if you're just typing into your phone or on your laptop oh, that is a good one, that's a really good one. I like that differentiator of technology versus not, because that really shows that you're there. So I heard plan for it, be intentional, make sure that you're not adding something that doesn't have value. Check yourself and then take notes. Did I get them right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I love them. Those are great, awesome, awesome, all right. So when we come back, we're going to really talk about what we're going to do, how we're going to apply all this. So when we come back, be ready, katie. We're going to go into stop, start and continue. We'll be right back, all right. So this is where the rubber hits the road. I sometimes get that wrong. I say like the rubber, the tires, whatever, I always get those wrong.

Speaker 1:

But I think you'll probably agree with me, katie, it's really important to take the time to not just understand these concepts or listen to the tips, but what are you going to do to do something different? And we all have an opportunity to change something. We're a work in progress, always, always, always. So let's do our stop, start and continue, and I'll start I'll do mine, you do yours, and then we'll challenge everybody to think so the first thing around silence. What am I going to stop doing and it is directly related to one of your tips is I am going to stop adding my what I believe is value to the conversation. When somebody gets done telling a story or making a point, I'm going to stop jumping in and making myself think is this adding to the conversation?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And you know it's funny because stop. It's like, oh okay, all the things that are running through my mind. And you know it's funny because stop, it's like, oh okay, all the things that are running through my mind no-transcript.

Speaker 1:

We're making it worse. Yes, yeah, we're magnifying that. Yes, okay, that's a good one, that's a hard one. How are you going to keep yourself accountable? I have to ask as a coach, I have to ask you what are you?

Speaker 2:

going to do yeah, yeah. Well, you know it's funny because I have an advisory group and we spend a lot of time on this type of work and you know, as a business owner, we don't, I don't have I mean, I have two women that report to me. So, um, so it's acknowledge, tell them that we're going to do it and then we're just going to move forward Nice.

Speaker 1:

I love it. All right, what are you going to start doing? And I am also going to take something you say I'm going to start being telling people when I'm in front of groups, I'm going to practice awkward silence, so be ready. I think that's really powerful to be able to get the other person ready for it as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, well, and something I don't do but I'm going to start doing is asking people their comfort with silence. You know how do they practice this. I think you know it's it's something that some people are comfortable with and others aren't. And you know, while I acknowledge that awkward silence, you know I want to hear from other people, you know, before we even get into an active conversation like how do you practice silence, what works for you, and include that in getting to know people.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I'm going to do a plus. I should have had you go first, so I could just say ditto. Should have had you go first so I could just say ditto. That's really interesting is exploring people's um how they view it. I love that so much. Uh, all right, so to continue. What am I going to continue doing? I think it's a thoughtful practice. Um, I take notes and I'm going to continue to do that is be really thoughtful, so I can be in the moment and really apply it in a meaningful way. So I'm going to continue to do that is be really thoughtful and take the notes along the way so I can be really present. What are you going to continue doing?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and for me, I'm going to continue to share with people. You know, kind of I always fall back into my emotional intelligence and my having to let my brain catch up with my tongue, and so letting people know upfront that I need extra processing time because if not, I may say or do something that doesn't help the conversation or doesn't support the work we're doing, and so really leaning in and let people know that I will take a breath and I will lean into the silence to just help me and help the relationship be stronger.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's so good because you're going to show up differently, yeah, so people are going to notice that, and so, being able to help them to see it too, you're making the people around you better because you're making them be more intentional about the silence as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and they're not sitting there like should I say something? It's quiet. Do I need to fill the air? It's like no Katie's processing this. This is how she does it.

Speaker 1:

It is a really hard thing. It is a really hard thing that we talk about a lot. They may have a visceral reaction to it.

Speaker 2:

It may mean that there's a problem, it may mean that you know there's something else going on, and so having that common sense around silence, I think, is really powerful, not just in the workplace and in our leadership roles, but really in our relationships.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, practice it at home. It's the best place to do it. Interrupt those regular cadence, those habits, and that will allow the other person to really pay attention as well. Yeah, you gave me so much to think about. I'm so glad you were here. Thank you. Yeah, I love it Me too. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Make sure, oh tell people how to find you? Yeah, the easiest way is just katiervincom K A T I E E R V. As in Victor I Ncom, everything's there.

Speaker 1:

Awesome, awesome. Thank you so much, katie, and if you want to know more about what's up with me, go to negotiationlovecom. That's where everything is, and I'm so glad you made the commitment to join Katie and I today. And I don't want you to forget that negotiation is more than a skill it's a mindset. Until next time.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Leaders with Leverage. I am so honored that you chose to spend your time with me. If you're ready to accelerate your professional growth and invest in defining the career you want, I have more resources for you. You can join my newsletter, where your inbox will love a Monday minute. It's an easy read, where I share stories of how others are adopting a negotiator's mindset so that you can use these tips so that you can find success every week. And if you want to read my book, the Art of Everyday Negotiation Without Manipulation, I have a special offer just for my listeners. These links can be found in the show notes, and if you want to work with me, there's more information there as well. I'd love for you to be a part of this movement to adopt a negotiator's mindset, because those who do create opportunities for themselves and they believe the investment is completely worth it. Head to the links in the show notes and just remember that I appreciate you.

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Susie Tomenchok

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